Summer is here, and with it, comic book event season. If you're a super-hero comic fan, you have come to expect that summertime brings around a bunch of high-octane, epic event books with tie-ins in numerous titles. Marvel's offering this summer is Avengers Vs. X-Men, pitting arguably the two flagship teams of the Marvel Universe (sorry, Power Pack), against each other.
Since issue one, I have been cheerfully bickering with my beloved friend, and host of the LOIKAMANIA Pop Cultre Podcast, Mr. Pat Loika. Pat is fully on the side of the X-Men, whereas I am absolutely Team Avengers. Now, a third of the way through the event, Pat and I got together to have it out, mano-a-mano!
(Spoilers for AvX abound, particularly issue one, but they're honestly not as spoiler-y as I thought they'd be. We also spoil little bits of the Avengers: Children's Crusade series and basically nerd up the joint. So you've been warned.)
*****
Pat Loika: First, let’s talk about - how are
you enjoying it so far?
Travis Holyfield: I’m enjoying it
very much so far, actually. I really, really am. I think it’s been a cool
concept, I think it’s been executed really well, I’ve had lot of fun with it,
and I’m enjoying where it’s going.
PL: It’s been a lot of fun. It’s a good,
old-time comic slobberknocker, you know? You’ve got two opposing teams who are
usually friends and they’re fighting over something that could be potentially
dangerous to them. It’s not something that’s set in stone. The Phoenix Force,
right?
TH: Right.
PL: I guess for the audience who maybe don’t
read X-Men or X-Men vs. Avengers, the main concept is that the
Phoenix Force - which is this all-powerful cosmic force for life and death - is
returning to Earth, and it’s heading for the so-called ‘Mutant Messiah’, Hope
Summers. The reason for the conflict is that the Avengers basically want to
take her in, because in their eyes they’re keeping her safe from the Phoenix.
Whereas Cyclops and the X-Men (well, his crew of X-Men, anyway), they’re
thinking, “Leave her alone, this is part of her destiny”, and that maybe she
can control the Phoenix and restore mutantkind. And that’s where the conflict comes from.
TH: And this, right here, is why I
don’t get how you can be Team X-Men in this.
PL: Well, here’s my thing...
TH: Wait, just for a second.
Separating out the fact that you like the characters, separating the fact that
these characters are cool or whatever - when you really, objectively look at
the two positions, the Cyclops position is just nuts.
PL: I don’t think so! Because the Phoenix
Force has not only taken over Jean Grey, you know. It has also taken over
Rachel Summers, and she did fine, for example. To a certain extent Quentin
Quire was taken over. The Cuckoos. And for a brief moment, even Emma Frost, if
you read the Greg Pak Phoenix books (which they have acknowledged as part of
the continuity), and it’s not always bad! There’s only one major case where
things go bad, and that’s whole Jean Grey thing - and that’s because she was
manipulated by the Hellfire Club!
TH: But if we are going to look at
the continuity - in all of the cases that you’ve cited - the Cuckoos, Emma
Frost, Quentin Quire - even Rachel - none of them were dealing with the entire
Phoenix Force. All of them were dealing with only a fragment of that power. And
even within those contexts, there were problems and there were complications.
Like when Rachel was first taken over by the Phoenix, and she first got those
powers, she was doing a lot of stuff that was making the X-Men very nervous.
She was going after the Beyonder, she decides she’s going to kill Selene (of
the Hellfire Club), she ends up pulling Wolverine into this loop of psychic
nightmares and he eventually stabs her through the heart - it’s not always been
a situation where, “Yes, these characters have things under control”. And even
under best of circumstances, they have not been dealing with the full-on
Phoenix. The only example we have of anyone dealing with the full-on Phoenix is
Jean Grey, and -
PL: - and it wasn’t even Jean Grey, it was the
Phoenix Force masquerading as Jean Grey.
TH: Exactly. And I’m not sure how
they even address that in continuity at this point, because - yes, that’s
historically true, but reading Avengers vs. X-Men, it definitely seems
like they’ve glossed over that, and they’re kind of just pursuing the “Well,
yeah, you know - it’s whoever it is” kind of thing.
PL: Well - here’s the thing. When they were
dealing with those previous instances of the Phoenix Force, they didn’t have
the knowledge that they now have. You see, you learn with each encounter - and
I would think that they have protocols and countermeasures to deal with the
Phoenix Force if ever it resurfaced.
If you read Uncanny X-Men, you know
that Cyclops has a contingency plan for every contingency plan. He knows what
he’s doing. And it really shows you how splintered the Marvel Universe was for
a time, because when New York was being attacked by Magneto, where was
everybody? When Genosha got destroyed, where were the Avengers? Nobody was
there! Nobody cared! And now, they’re getting in the X-Men’s business.
TH: But you can flip that around,
too. During Civil War, the X-Men were completely sitting that out.
PL: You know why they sat that out? Because -
“Where were you when our people were getting blown up?!?”
TH: I’m just saying - you can’t
chicken-and-the-egg this. First of all - there is that aspect. But this is a
tough argument, because one of the things that comes up is us, as fans,
intellectually going, “Well, why didn’t this happen? Why didn’t this
happen?” - and the reality is, the reason it didn’t happen is because the
writers want the X-Men to take care of their own stuff. Because it’s too easy
to have the Avengers - or the Fantastic Four - it’s too easy to have everybody
show up every time.
PL: That’s understandable -
TH: So you’ve got to just keep
that in mind. But I’m just saying that within the context of the different
events that happen and things like that, the X-Men have done their share of
sitting on their hands while the Avengers - or the Fantastic Four, or whoever -
have dealt with major things. So it’s just not as simple as, “Well, where have
you guys been when all this stuff happened to us?”
PL: The thing is, it’s already ingrained there
as far as the Universe, so you can see why they’re kind of mistrusting - that’s
why they don’t want to let the Avengers do it their way. They would rather deal
with it themselves, because they’re so used to being at a point where they are
isolated, and they are left to their own devices. And now these guys are
getting in their way, and the only reason they are getting in the way is
probably because of the influence of a ‘certain person’ who is both an Avenger and
an X-Man (and a race traitor!) - Wolverine.
TH: Yeah, the Beast! I know you’re
talking about Wolverine, but the Beast is just as much on both sides of this.
He’s been an X-Man, he’s been an Avenger, and he is very firmly on the Avengers
side here - and I haven’t seen a lot of the ‘traitor’ label leveled at his
fuzzy blue ass!
PL: That’s mainly because Beast really hasn’t
been seen in the whole battle. He’s been in space. They’re trying to contain it
from out there. And you know what? I thought that was a more noble thing to do,
rather than going after the kid, who is probably confused and trying to deal
with all of this stuff that’s being laid on her head! This could possibly even
scare her more - and it could possibly lead to her - if she does end up
with the Phoenix Force - her being as screwed up as Jean was at first.
TH: Let me break down a couple of
things, though. The first thing is, let’s not ever refer to Hope Summers as a
scared kid. Because it’s the exact opposite of how she is portrayed in 99.9% of
her appearances. That character, from the jump, has just been a little, tiny,
red-headed stone badass. And there’s very little - especially post-Messiah
Complex - with her where she has been anything except a little tough chick.
So suddenly saying you’re going to scare her -
PL: Well, that’s me trying to rig the argument
to my side.
TH: Exactly! And that’s bullshit.
Because if you want to rig the argument to their side, just opening pages of Avengers
vs. X-Men 1, you’ve got the Avengers trying to save the city from a
crashing airplane. The first time you see the X-Men, Cyclops is repeatedly
kicking this ‘scared girl’ of yours in the stomach. So if you want to talk
about who comes out better in this - the super team who is trying to save a
whole bunch of innocent people, or Cyclops, who is just - repeatedly pummeling
this teenage girl.
For me it’s an argument of scale, and the X-Men argument makes no sense.
Because the X-Men are hinging everything upon this incredibly ethereal idea of
“Oh, it’s gotta be coming here for a reason - maybe it’ll help out
mutantkind” - but so far, all it’s been shown to do is destroy every planet
that it’s gone across. So from the Avengers’ perspective, it’s like, “Alright,
well - it’d be nice if it kickstarted all of the mutants the way that you’re
talking about, but odds are good that what it’s really going to do is
annihilate all life on the planet”. And that, to me, seems like a hell of a gamble
to take. Cyclops is rolling all the dice on, “Hey, maybe this redhead
can handle it”, as opposed to the previous redhead.
PL: Well - you have to understand also that
Cyclops is kind of in desperation mode right now. Everything they’ve done -
it’s been a hard life for them, and he has the burden, basically, of being the
‘Chief’ - the high Chief - of mutantkind. And he is in charge of that entire shrinking
race of people. Now, if you were in that position - and you knew what that
thing is capable of - just put yourself in his shoes, and you would probably
think, “You know, this may be it”, and you’re going to put all of your hope
(for lack of a better term) into this Phoenix Force. Because you’ve seen what
it can do - you’ve seen the good and the bad. And of course he’s not
aware that it’s been destroying stuff on its way to where it’s going right now.
TH: He’s witnessed it before,
though! He’s witnessed Jean Grey - as Dark Phoenix - destroying an entire
planet full of people.
PL: Well, he also knows that the Phoenix is
capable of compassion. And capable of doing what needed to be done - when it
allowed itself to be killed.
TH: But remember - at the time, it
was not the Phoenix doing it. That was Jean Grey’s persona bursting forward -
momentarily - from this all-powerful thing to do what needed to be done. So
that has nothing to do with the Phoenix having compassion. That has to
do with Jean, all of a sudden, having a moment of clarity.
PL: That’s why it’s looking for its host,
remember? That’s why it’s looking for someone to inhabit. And maybe when it
possesses Hope, it will exhibit the traits, and the feelings, and everything
that makes Hope a good person. So they’re banking on that, and hoping against
all hope that they can restart their race. From there. Because his plight is -
they really don’t have much of a choice! Everything they’ve tried -
you’ve read Messiah Complex and Messiah War and Second Coming
- you’ve read all the stuff since House of M , and you know they’re
pretty desperate. There’s almost nothing left, and they’ve tried everything,
even looking through alternate timelines. And there’s even Children’s
Crusade, where they had a glimmer of hope in the Scarlet Witch! But they
don’t have that.
TH: But if you’re reading Children’s
Crusade, Cyclops spends most of Children’s Crusade looking to kill
the Scarlet Witch.
PL: Well, yeah - look what she did! And also,
that was before he found that she restored Rictor’s powers! And she has a role
in this thing too that we don’t even know yet. So -
TH: Yeah. I don’t not understand
the X-Men’s side of the argument, I just feel like it is a very dangerous
gamble, and one that gambles, essentially, with every single person on the
planet. It gambles for the life of an entire planet, for something that there’s
no evidence of - it’s basically just a gut-hunch for Cyclops, whose gut-hunches
lately have been fairly shitty and self-destructive.
PL: I will disagree that he’s been pretty
shitty with his decision-making lately. They were able to stand up to Celestials.
And the Celestials were like, “You’re alright, so we’ll leave you alone”! The
Celestials were showing them respect! And what particularly bad move has he
made? Just - name something.
TH: I can give you a whole bunch.
But I will give you the crux of my argument - which is just that Cyclops no
longer stands for any of the things he was supposed to stand for. The X-Men’s
charter was always to attempt to promote peaceful coexistence between humans
and mutants, and to defend the world that hates and fears them.
PL: They’re still defending the world that
hates and fears them -
TH: That’s secondary, though.
They’re not doing that to defend the world and promote peaceful coexistence. If
you look at Cyclops’ entire X-Men team - he calls it the ‘Extinction
Team’ - it’s all made up to basically be a nuclear deterrent. Cyclops at this
point has pretty much all the mutants under his umbrella, under his control,
and all of the actions he’s making are to basically build up WMDs for them. And
the worst decision that I can see is the decision during Fear Itself
that leads to Colossus being possessed and becoming the embodiment of the
Juggernaut. That right there - you are juggling nitroglycerine with that. And
it’s just a matter of Cyclops - this incarnation of Cyclops that we have now -
no longer standing for Xavier’s dream, no longer standing for that peaceful
coexistence, and just continually looking for the bigger gun. That’s
what the guy’s after all the time.
PL: Well, that’s the thing. You don’t have the
luxury to follow that dream anymore. Look at what happened to their
people - 60 million mutants murdered in Genosha. The rest of them depowered.
Down to less than 200 mutants on the planet. And sure, they got lucky - they
got five new ones that came out after Hope. What else do you do? First
of all, he wanted to show a united front - he was willing to put aside
differences with other mutants because, “Hey! There’s not much of us left.
Let’s all band together, let’s all stay here on this island and protect each
other.” Granted, that’s not Xavier’s dream - but Xavier’s dream just doesn’t
work anymore after M-Day. Things just got worse for them. I mean, look what
happened with the Purifiers, for example. They went after those kids at their
school. All the stuff that happened after that. I mean - you have to take a
stand. And even though it’s not the best thing - and even Cyclops realizes what
he’s doing - bur he doesn’t have the luxury anymore; you can’t do
things the way we used to. The stakes are even higher, and there are so few of
them left - he wants to protect his people.
TH: I absolutely get that! And I’m
saying - that is awesome, if you’re one of the 200 mutants left in the
Marvel Universe. If you’re one of those 200 mutants under his umbrella, then
yeah, his decision is pretty awesome. But if you are anybody else living in the
616 Universe, you basically are screwed. And the other thing is, let’s not
forget that as soon as Captain America - as soon as Steve Rogers - gets the
position as “top cop” of the Marvel Universe - as soon as Osborne’s out, Cap is
in, Cap can run things his way - one of the first things he does is go
to Cyclops. And be like, “We want you guys to be on board. We want you to be
part of the group.” And Cyclops basically tells him to fuck himself. He
basically says, “No, we’re just taking care of our own shit.” So to then turn
around and have the whole argument against Captain America and be like, “Well,
where were you here?” - it’s not like Cap hasn’t tried to get in there
and bridge some of these gaps, and make it more - you know -
PL: Yeah, I give him credit for that - he
tried, and that’s admirable. Good on him for doing that. But I don’t think they
wanted to be - first of all, I don’t think he told him to go fuck
himself in that way.
TH: You throw your medal from the
President into the ocean, there, and that’s kind of a “Go fuck yourself”.
PL: He didn’t do it in front of Cap.
TH: Alright.
PL: You do that in front of Cap, that’s one
thing. You do that when you’re on your own -
TH: He didn’t take a runny dump on
the shield or anything like that. I’m not saying that.
PL: Yeah, exactly!
TH: But again, some of this
isolationism, some of this “Where were you at the time...” stuff, is totally
nobody’s fault but Cyclops’. So I’m just saying - I don’t not see the
X-Men’s side of this. I don’t not get that. However - every time
somebody’s like, “Oh, the Avengers are being fascists”, I was just like,
“Really? Because all they’re doing is sticking up for everybody on the planet
who is not one of these 200 mutants.” That’s the only thing that
the Avengers are doing, is trying to protect the planet, as opposed to these 200 people that happen to share a
genetic code with them. They’re trying to protect everybody including
those 200 mutants.
PL: The way they handled it, though - they
show up on the island - they show up with Cap - and you hide the Helicarrier.
If you want to be honest about things, you would have tried to call the guy and
have a conversation with him. And then go from there, and see what needs to be
done. The way he approached things in Issue 1 - where he just showed up, and
was like, “We need to take Hope”; that’s not cool. That’s not.
TH: I don’t know, I think it’s
pretty cool - what’re you gonna do, call the guy? That’s like breaking up with
somebody over the phone! it’s a big conversation, you have it with the guy
face-to-face.
PL: No. If you called him and said, “Hey. We
need to get over there, we need to talk about something really important
regarding this.” And the way he approached it is, they brought - if he came in
by himself, that’s okay, because hey, those are friends. I mean, let’s
be honest, they’re all friends. To a certain point. They’re all friends - and
he shows up there with his army of Avengers and the Helicarrier and all that,
and that’s kind of messed-up.
TH: I’m not - you know what, maybe
I can give you that - I don’t agree with it, necessarily - but let’s also say,
who throws the first punch?
PL: Cyclops did!
TH: Exactly!
PL: Because he’s the one who’s going, “You
guys are coming to my home and you’re telling me what to do.” And he did what
he felt he had to do. Was it an overreaction? Possibly. But he’s not doing it
because he’s being an asshole.
TH: He’s doing it because he’s
being a little bit of an asshole.
PL: No he’s not.
TH: I’m sorry. You can’t. excuse
Cyclops for doing shit like blasting Captain America just because he’s pissed
off at him and then be like, “Fuck you, Cap. You had a whole Helicarrier full
of people.” The dude’s the greatest soldier who ever lived, of course he’s not
just gonna show up with his shield and his dick in his hand. He’s gonna show up
and be like, “Look, I’d like to talk this out, but I’m prepared to go the next
step”, because that’s what a good soldier does.
PL: If he had approached Cyclops differently,
and Cyclops had done something else, because of that, I’d be more than willing
to admit that one side kind of overreacted over the other. However, just the
way this whole thing was approached, I wasn’t too thrilled. He showed up
barking orders. I really have a problem with that.
TH: You really feel like it’s
barking orders? Because I don’t. I read that conversation completely
differently. I read that conversation as him trying to talk to Cyclops man-to-man
about what the situation is and having Cyclops basically get in his face,
honestly, just like a spoiled kid, and be like, “Here’s the laundry list of
complaints I have about shit that, you’re not directly responsible for, or shit
that I did.
PL: You have a point, to a certain degree,
TH: If you’re just Joe average guy
in the Marvel Universe, what are you going to want? Are you going to want the
Avengers to do their job, and watch out for you and everybody you’ve ever met
against potentially an extinction-level threat, or are you going to be like, “Well,
there’s only 200 mutants left, so let’s see how this plays out.” Like, if an
asteroid were headed for the planet, and somebody was like, “Well, there’s a
chance that when the asteroid hits, all the mutants will come back.”
PL: There’s a difference, though, come on.
TH: There’s NOT! The difference is
the asteroid isn’t sentient.
PL: EXACTLY! The Phoenix Force is sentient.
TH: It’s sentient, it has will,
and it’s many times been proven malicious.
PL: Not all the time. It can be controlled. It’s
not perfect. But do you think Cyclops is like, “This is the best idea we can
come up with.” I’m sure there’s part of him that thinks, “This is a bad idea,
BUT this needs to be done.”
TH: I actually don’t. I feel like
this is where his head has been going since she showed up. Since the first time
they find the baby and the baby’s a redhead.
PL: I don’t think he’s thinking the Phoenix,
though. I don’t think he can even account for the Phoenix at that point. The
Phoenix thing didn’t show up until the beginning of ‘The Five Lights”. There’s
no guarantee just because someone’s a mutant and a redhead... Cyclops is not
that psychotic.
TH: YES HE IS! This is a guy who
married the identical twin of his dead girlfriend.
PL: Well, did he KNOW it was a clone?
TH: No, but she was an IDENTICAL
TWIN of his ex-girlfriend!
PL: He fell in love with a girl who reminded
him of…
TH: She didn’t REMIND him, she
looks EXACTLY LIKE HER.
PL: What can you do? He has a type.
*****
Be sure to check Loikamania for an upcoming episode featuring the full conversation. Thanks to Pat for nerd-bickering with me, and a million thank yous to my beautiful wife, Jenny Langin, for transcribing most of this.
Hugs and Kisses,
(The)Travis